Acts 15 and 21. Law of Moses? Subscribe   
  From:  Hamilton109   10/31/2001 4:50 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 39)  
 
  245.1  
 
I am a Messianic Jew and as I read these two Chapters, I see the basis for the following proposition. 
"Resolved: The New Testament NORM for the JEWISH Believer is Observance of the Law of Moses, but it was not a requirement for GENTILE believer, rather the Law of Noah (Genesis 9)is." 

Six years ago I was challanged in my views and after a long hard study, came to believe that this was indeed a correct view, openly endorsed by all of the Apostles in both word and practice. 

The problem however, is that more than three-quarters of Chuch History rather forcefully negate this view. Indeed, for much of church history, being what we would call today a "Messianic Jew" was a death sentence. Witness the Inquisition in Spain in the mid 1400s. 

IF my proposition is true, how then do we deal with things like "Second Nicea" (787) and other Councils that would negate the Council at Jerusalem?
 
  
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  From:  8320JOHN   10/31/2001 8:55 pm  
To:  Hamilton109   (2 of 39)  
 
  245.2 in reply to 245.1  
 
Regardless of the council and their negation, observance of the Law of Moses is not obligatory for Messianic Jew or gentile convert. Paul is explicit in this affirmation. 
Blessings and Peace, 



Regards, 

John
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    10/31/2001 9:01 pm  
To:  Hamilton109   (3 of 39)  
 
  245.3 in reply to 245.1  
 
Hi,

 

Lets do look into the Law and the Jews and the Law and the Church.

 

I applaud you in Referencing the book of Acts for Doctrine I think it is one of the most overlooked books on Doctrinal issues.

 

The way to undo what some of the later councils have done is to remain loyal to the Bible as the Complete Inspired word of God. That is Complete in scope of content. 

 

I agree that the Jews are to follow the Laws of Moses and that the Gentile Nations are to follow the Covenant given to Noah.

 

It seems to me that What the Church follows is the Laws of Moses but in the  Spiritual light of Jesus. Where the Jewish Sabbath is physical the Churchs Sabbath is Spiritual in Jesus. Where the Jews follow various physical cleansings the Church is Spiritually cleansed in Jesus etc.

 

That is just my thoughts, let me know what you think.

 

God Bless You,

David





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    11/1/2001 8:10 am  
To:  Hamilton109   (4 of 39)  
 
  245.4 in reply to 245.1  
 
Shalom B'Shem Yeshua! 
I'm concerned that you seem to be presenting the Noachide commandments. Did I misread?

Barbara
 
  
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  From:  Hamilton109   11/1/2001 9:41 am  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (5 of 39)  
 
  245.5 in reply to 245.4  
 

<<Shalom B'Shem Yeshua! 
I'm concerned that you seem to be presenting the Noachide commandments. Did I misread? 

Barbara>> 

Well, sort of.... 

**I** am not presenting the Noachide commandments, I am saying that the *Council of Jerusalem* referrenced the Noachide Laws -- somewhat explicitly -- in Acts 15 & 21. A quick reading of Gen 9, followed by a quick reading of these two chapters really highlight their line of thought. 



 
  
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  From:  Hamilton109   11/1/2001 9:49 am  
To:  8320JOHN   (6 of 39)  
 
  245.6 in reply to 245.2  
 

>>>Regardless of the council and their negation, observance of the Law of Moses is not obligatory for Messianic Jew or gentile convert. Paul is explicit in this affirmation.<<< 
For the God-Fearing Gentile yes, but if you think that in relation to the JEWISH believer, you open yourself to a host of problems, not the least of which is that Paul was prevaricating in Acts 21 and at the end of Acts 28. 

It also gives us problems when it comes to Paul's willingness to circumcize Timothy, an assimilated Jew, and his steadfast refusal to circumcize Titus, in spite of serious pressure to do so. 

That is only the beginning. Things really start to unravel if we cannot accept Act 15 & 21 as saying what they mean and meaning what they say.
 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    11/1/2001 9:59 am  
To:  Hamilton109   (7 of 39)  
 
  245.7 in reply to 245.5  
 
As a Messianic believer myself, I spend a great deal of time presenting the idea that there is One Torah, One Messiah, One Faith. We are united by faith in Yeshua. 
G-d did set up commandments for Jews and commandments for Gentiles. There is ONE set of commandments for all who come to faith in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 

Numbers 15 
and 

Lev 24:22 
22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'" 
(NAS) 

are just two such passages that have led me to this conclusion. 

The "noachide commandments' were set up by rabbinical Judaism to show how Gentiles can earn salvation. It is a mindset of salvation by works. 

Many Christians love quoting Acts 15 as a "proof passage" that Gentiles aren't supposed to be obeying the commandments or that Gentiles have a seperate set of commandments. But they fail to look at verse 21 where Gentiles will be in they synaagogue on the sabbath learning the Law of Moses. 

I'm not sure which side you fall on this by your posts, but I'd love to discuss more :) 

Shalom

Barbara
 
  
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  From:  BenRDeemed (ScottR1982)   11/1/2001 11:06 am  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (8 of 39)  
 
  245.8 in reply to 245.7  
 
Barbara, 
Grace and Peace to you. 

Acts 15:21 says... 

"For Moses from ancent generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath." (NASB) 

"For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." (NKJV) 

These verses do not give a command for gentiles to be in the synagogues. It does not even imply that gentile converts attend the synagogue. Those who believe gentiles must obey the Jewish laws imply that, but the scripture does not state that here. 

In the portion of the chapter that James writes the letter, we are given the text (Acts 15:23-29) there is no mention of a gentile requirement for attending synagogue. Nor have I seen any such requirement in scripture. 

I know that many Messianic believers bring up this verse to "refute" the claims of "freedom in Christ" that other Christians believe, yet I do not follow the reasoning that reads that verse as saying gentile Christians are in the synagogues being taught Moses. 

It appears that people who believe gentiles should obey the Torah read their view into that verse. Those who believe otherwise read their view into the verse. But what does the verse actually say other then that Moses is taught in synagogues all over the world. 

Why was it stated? Was it stated because it is assumed Gentiles would be studying in the synagogues. It seems to me that most synagogues taught against Jesus in the book of Acts. It was the Jews that attended the synagogues that were the first atagonists against Paul. Why would anyone require a new believer to go sit under hostile teachers? Quite the contrary, we want to firmly ground new believers in the word prior to them confronting a hostile world, so that they are adequately prepared for every good work (II Tim 3:17). 

That same verse could be read as implying "look, we have Moses taught everywhere, and we can't get it right, why put that burden on the gentiles?" Again, that is reading another point of view into the verse, but it seems valid based on the context of putting no more burden on the gentiles (vs 19). James' letter seems to reflect that view with any commandment to go to synagogue. 

BTW, if you feel led by God to obey the Torah, then do so. What is done by faith is pleasing to Him and not sin (Heb 11:6, Rom 14:23). For me, I am not so led, yet I trust the Holy Spirit will lead in the way He chooses to do. 

The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit 
Scott
 
  
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  From:  Hamilton109   11/1/2001 11:47 am  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (9 of 39)  
 
  245.9 in reply to 245.7  
 
>>>>As a Messianic believer myself, I spend a great deal of time presenting the idea that there is One Torah, One Messiah, One Faith. We are united by faith in Yeshua.<<<< 
And we are one Body, but with many parts. It is key to remember that the very phrase "one body, many parts" was used in the context of Jewish-Gentile friction. 

>>>G-d did set up commandments for Jews and commandments for Gentiles.<<< 

Just as he did for men and women. Just as he did for servant and master. 

>>>There is ONE set of commandments for all who come to faith in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.<<< 

Even within Torah we do not see that as so, at least the way you seem to mean it. 

All through Scripture we see believing Gentiles who are not portrayed as 

>>>Numbers 15 
and 
Lev 24:22 
22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'" 
(NAS) 

are just two such passages that have led me to this conclusion. <<< 

These passages should be read a little closer to the context. What is being spoken of here is Law suites and punishments for crimes. There are specific dietary requirements that ALLOW the stranger among you to partake of things that the Jew may not.... 

Of course even for the JEWS this was not universally true. Certain tasks were given to the Sons of Aaron that were not open to other members of the tribe of Levi, and likewise certain tasks were open to Levites that were NOT open to the other 11 tribes. 

What would have happened to me if I, resting on your interp, go into the Temple as a member of the tribe of, oh, say, Issachar --- and start to do that which Priests are supposed to do...? 

I could CLAIM, rightly, the Israel is a nation of Priests, and that I should be allowed a turn in the temple.... Do you think anyone would buy it? 

>>>The "noachide commandments' were set up by rabbinical Judaism to show how Gentiles can earn salvation. It is a mindset of salvation by works. <<< 

Read Genesis 9. How ever the Rabbis interpret it is not important. The STANDARD was given by HaShem, and repeated in Acts. 

>>>Many Christians love quoting Acts 15 as a "proof passage" that Gentiles aren't supposed to be obeying the commandments or that Gentiles have a seperate set of commandments. But they fail to look at verse 21 where Gentiles will be in they synaagogue on the sabbath learning the Law of Moses.<<< 

It isn't Just a "proof passage" it was a Council drawn up to speak to this exact issue. Frankly, you seem to not want to accept it. 

As for the issue of Moses being read in the Synagogues there are two good interps. 

The FIRST is pretty standard, that "my house shall be a house of prayer for ALL people." 

The SECOND is a little more original, and not conclusive, and by no means free of isogesis. Try reading the passage this way -- "For Moses is read in all the synagogues -- you listen every year to Noach, on the second Shabbat of the year, you already KNOW what is required of the Gentiles." 

Remember that Yeshuah cleared the "Court of the Gentiles" of the moneychangers quoting "My house shall be a house of prayer for all people." 

That night many people were reminded as they nursed welts and bruises, that The Gentiles too had there special area of worship and that they should not crowd them into either fully converting, or being a non-believer. 

>>>I'm not sure which side you fall on this by your posts, but I'd love to discuss more :) <<< 

Tell me, how do YOU interpret Acts 15 and 21? 

Shalom 
Barbara 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    11/1/2001 5:35 pm  
To:  Hamilton109   (10 of 39)  
 
  245.10 in reply to 245.9  
 
Well, I never implied or even inferred that all commandments were for all people. However, there is the entity of Torah for all. 
Gentiles are grafted into the coventants of G-d. They aren't grafted into a separate tree with different fruit. 

The problem with supporting the Noachide commandments are twofold: 1. The biggest problem is in my earlier post: that it is salvation by works; 2. that if the ONLY commandments are the Noachide ones, then that suggests that Christians are wrong by embracing the "Two Greatest Commandments", the Great Commission, etc. And by suggesting that only the 4 of the 7 mentioned in Acts are all, then cross off honoring your parents, and not stealing. 

Not even the most stringent anti-law Christians will say love your neighbor as yourself doesn't apply to them. By claiming the 4 in Acts as the ONLY four requirements for Gentiles, then you are basically saying the rest of the Bible is for Jews. Gentiles get Acts 15 and 21. The Jews get the rest of the book. 

Teaching two sets of commandments only divides my friend. By teaching the entire Torah to all believers we are uniting both Jew and Gentile, who are one in Yeshua, one in Torah. 

Shalom

Barbara 
  
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  From:  Hamilton109   11/1/2001 6:04 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (11 of 39)  
 
  245.11 in reply to 245.10  
 
You bring up some very good points, and even if you look at the behaviours of Noah's succeeding Generations they know and observe many things before the finally get to Sinai. 
What I would say is simply this. 

First, it is all grace to everyone. 

ALL of Moses is not required of everyone, but it IS required of you and me. It is also required of the 99% assimilated Jewish person sitting in a church pew. I would go so far as to say they are engaged in a type of spiritual cross-dressing. 

My intent is not to negate the worth of Gentiles, but to emphisise that we are MANY PARTS. I am only trying to strictly interpret WHAT those two chapters specifically say to this issue. THEY affirm the two standards positon, and affirm it over the everybody has to do everything view. They also speak clearly that JEWISH believers are to keep Moses.
 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    11/1/2001 7:33 pm  
To:  BenRDeemed (ScottR1982)   (12 of 39)  
 
  245.12 in reply to 245.8  
 
Hi Scott, 
I absolutely agree that Acts 15:21 doesn't command Gentiles to be in synagogues on shabbat. But where else are they going to go? They couldn't join First Baptist down the street, or take a bus over to St. Paul's Lutheran Church! 

It isn't until Acts 10, 10 years after Jesus ascended, that we see Cornelius, a righteous Gentile (Gehr in Hebrew) coming to faith in the Jewish Messiah. Until that time, followers of the Way had been just another Jewish sect. But now, gasp, Gentiles were coming to faith in the Jewish Messiah. 

There were two schools of thought at this time concerning Gentiles who wanted to abandon their pagan gods and turn to the God of Israel: 

1. They (males) should be circumcised THEN learn Torah and the ways of the patriarchs. 

2. Gentiles who wanted to join the Jews worshipping the True God of Israel would be taught the Word, then later, if they chose to, they could be circumcized and become Jews. 

Paul and the council at Jerusalem chose #2. This would be consistent with Torah. Much of Christianity teaches these same precepts today; that God accepts you where you are, then molds you and teaches you to His creation. Gentiles following the Jewish Messiah would have the DESIRE to learn the commandments and the Word. 

If you want to get technical on me (grin) there are no commands for Jews to meet in synagogues either. :) 

"Freedom in Christ" doesn't mean free FROM the commandments of God. It means freedom FOR obedience. We don't fear failure. We LOVE Him so we desire to obey. 2 John 6. We aren't yoked to fear, dismay, failure or death. We are yoked to Yeshua who carries us through. 

-------------------- 
You said: 
Why was it stated? Was it stated because it is assumed Gentiles would be studying in the synagogues. It seems to me that most synagogues taught against Jesus in the book of Acts. It was the Jews that attended the synagogues that were the first atagonists against 
Paul. Why would anyone require a new believer to go sit under hostile teachers? Quite the contrary, we want to firmly ground new believers 
in the word prior to them confronting a hostile world, so that they are adequately prepared for every good work (II Tim 3:17). 

Pragmatically, the only written word they had to show the Jewish Messiah was/is Jesus was the Tenach, what we call the Old Testament today. I'm not negating the work/role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of these new Gentile believers. And much of Paul's opposition came from believing Jews :) 

Torah in is basic meaning is "guidance or instruction." For the Messianic believer, everything from Genesis through Rev. is "torah." When you love your neighbor as yourself, when you honor your parents, when you donate to the poor, when you teach your children the love of God, Scott, you are being led to follow Torah :) 

Shalom 


Barbara 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    11/1/2001 7:37 pm  
To:  Hamilton109   (13 of 39)  
 
  245.13 in reply to 245.11  
 
Well, perhaps then we are saying the same thing? 
As we grow in Truth and in the Spirt, we are to grow in obedience, are we not? It seems that faith makes obedience grow, which makes faith grow, which makes obedience grow, etc. 

The more we grow, the more we desire to obey. The more we learn the word, the more we desire to obey. The more we obey, our faith and His grace increases. 

The commandments are not the rules for an exclusive country club with only Jews as members. The commandments are offered to all. I point you to Isaiah 56. 

1 Everyone who believes that Yeshua is the Messiah has God as his father, and everyone who loves a father loves his offspring too. 2 Here is how we know that we love Gods children: when we love God, we also do what he commands. 3 For loving God means obeying his commands. Moreover, his commands are not burdensome, 4 because everything which has God as its Father overcomes the world. And this is what victoriously overcomes the world: our trust. 
The Jewish New Testament, (Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications) 1996. 

Shalom

Barbara 
  
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  From:  Hamilton109   11/2/2001 10:33 am  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (14 of 39)  
 
  245.14 in reply to 245.13  
 
As I read your post to Scott, I think we are pretty close. 
You are correct. There was no "Compromise at Jerusalem" rather they affirmed one specific position over another. 

Doing MORE than what is required is good if Gentiles feel led to do so, but it is not REQUIRED, at least not yet. 

My main point is that it is NOT optional for you and me, as believing Jews, to follow Moses the best way we know how. 

My MAIN desire is to speak to assimilated Jews in Nazarine Churches, Catholic Churches, Methodist Churches, Episcopal Churches, Baptist Churches, etc. "Become Obsevant! If at all Possible at least become a frequent visitor at a good Messianic congregation. If there IS no good Messianic Congregation, help build one! The Apostles left clear blueprints for us but no one has followed them. Lets start today."
 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    11/3/2001 7:38 am  
To:  Hamilton109   (15 of 39)  
 
  245.15 in reply to 245.14  
 
I understand. Really I do. 
I think perhaps my "calling" has been to educated the "churched" about the Jewish Scriptures and the Jewish Messiah. 

Shabbat Shalom

Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/23/2001 9:32 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (16 of 39)  
 
  245.16 in reply to 245.7  
 
Acts 21 says nothing of Gentiles learning the Law of Moses in the synagogue. In fact it again states that all that is required is: 
Acts 21:25  As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 

There indeed is a different set of laws for Jews and Gentiles. A Jew's devotion is to God and His teachings, whereas a Gentiles devotion is to Jesus and His teachings. The teachings are different. 
A Jew is told to effect resolution when wronged. A Gentile is told to forgive and help him, if he can. A Jew by God's law must be circumsised, a Gentile doesn't have to be. What most people don't take into account is when the Jews rejected Christ, a different promise went to the Gentiles. We are not required to live by the Jewish Faith, but the Christian Faith. The two are separate faiths and cannot exist on the same plain. As for those who try to live both; all I can say is, that the Word of God says, one must choose a side. You are either for Jesus or against Jesus, there is no midpoint. If for Jesus, then you must believe what He and the Apostles He appointed, including Paul preached. You must accept what they say and quit trying to change it by interjecting Jewish Law.

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/24/2001 8:55 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (17 of 39)  
 
  245.17 in reply to 245.16  
 
Acts 15:21 is the verse I quoted. 
You said: 
There indeed is a different set of laws for Jews and Gentiles 

Yet GOD SAID there is ONE law for all people. Didn't He mean it? 


Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/24/2001 10:57 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (18 of 39)  
 
  245.18 in reply to 245.17  
 
Please quote this scripture! 
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/25/2001 7:21 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (19 of 39)  
 
  245.19 in reply to 245.18  
 

Acts 15:21 
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath." 
(NAS) 
Acts 15:21 
21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." 
(NIV) 

Acts 15:21 
21 "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." 
(NKJ) 

Acts 15:21 
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 
(KJV) 


Barbara 
  
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   From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/25/2001 8:42 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (20 of 39)  
 
  245.20 in reply to 245.19  
 
And the word "synagogues" is the key word here. Preached to Jews. The Christians didn't attend the synagogues, but mostly home churches. The Bible even says that Jesus brother, James headed the first Christian church. Why would they need a Christian church, if they were attending the synagogue? A better question is, how could they teach Christianity in a synagogue that thought Jesus a criminal and saw to it He was crucified?
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/25/2001 8:52 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (21 of 39)  
 
  245.21 in reply to 245.20  
 
Could you give me some references for that so I can look it up? 
Thanks :)

Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/25/2001 9:32 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (22 of 39)  
 
  245.22 in reply to 245.21  
 
What do you mean? It is historical fact that the Christians and Jesus weren't accepted by the Jews. It is historical fact and still a fact that only Jews and converted or converting Jews are allowed in the synagogue! These are facts. If you have reason to believe I'm wrong then show me in scripture where it says that Christians went in the synagogues! There is no where that Christians were allowed in synagogues. The following should be proof enough! 
Acts 15:4  And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 

They were received of the "CHURCH", not the synagogue! You should read Acts 21. They drug Paul out of the Temple and tried to kill him for teaching the Word of God. This is also proof that they wouldn't allow Jesus followers in there.

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/25/2001 9:45 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (23 of 39)  
 
  245.23 in reply to 245.22  
 
You said: 
It is historical fact that the Christians and Jesus weren't accepted by the Jews. 
Well, if this is indeed historical fact, it shouldn't be that difficult to find the references. 

You said: 
It is historical fact and still a fact that only Jews and converted or converting Jews are allowed in the synagogue! 

I think someone forgot to tell the synagogue leaders that! Because absolutely EVERY synagogue I've ever heard of lets ANYONE into services. And clearly Acts 15 says that the uncircumcised are welcome into the synagogues on the sabbath. 

You said: 
If you have reason to believe I'm wrong then 
show me in scripture where it says that Christians went in the synagogues! 

Acts 15:21 

------------ 

I looked up the word "church" in Strong's. Here is the definition: 

1577 ekklesia (ek-klay-see'-ah); 

from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): 

KJV-- assembly, church. 

the word 'ekklesia" means a called out assembly. Just as the example we have at Mt. Sinai, when God's people were "called out" LITERALLY from Egypt (a symbol of sin.) They were to be HIS people, following HIS ways. 

-------------- 
You said: 
They drug Paul out of the Temple and tried to kill him 
for teaching the Word of God. This is also proof that they wouldn't allow Jesus followers in there. 

That's interesting. because when I read Acts 21, I read about Paul going into the temple offering a sacrifice. He was encouraged to do this by the other believers to show his loyalty to Torah. 

Also, I did a word search on "temple" in the book of Acts. Right off the bat we see the believers in Yeshua meeting at the temple: 

Acts 2:46 
46 And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 

They went in day after day. 

Then we have Peter and John going up to the temple to offer their daily prayers (another Jewish custom the first believers observed): 

Acts 3:1 
1 Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the ninth {hour,} the hour of prayer. 

Then, we have the VERY angel of the Lord commanding them to go preach at the temple: 

Acts 5:19-20 
19 But an angel of the Lord during the night opened the gates of the prison, and taking them out he said, 
20 "Go your way, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life." 

And again, the believers meeting at the temple: 

Acts 5:42 
42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus {as} the Christ. 

Thanks for allowing me to share. 


Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/26/2001 6:24 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (24 of 39)  
 
  245.24 in reply to 245.23  
 
As you said the greek word could mean temple or church. Since it doesn't say Jewish Temple or Christian church, these are moot points. What isn't moot is the fact that you are taking these verses out of context that proves them Christian and not Jewish meeting places. 
<<<Well, if this is indeed historical fact, it shouldn't be that difficult to find the references. 

You said: 
It is historical fact and still a fact that only Jews and converted or converting Jews are allowed in the synagogue!>>> 

Apparently, you don't read the Talmud or Torah. Both say that infidels[those not of the Jewish Faith] cannot be accepted into the church without converting to Judaism. Now if these churches you've seen infidels are in America, then that explains it. The American Jews don't live by the same law as the Jews in Israel. I remember reading a report at Aish.com where the Israeli rabbis are upset with the laxity of the Jewish Law in the Americas. Maybe you should go read those too. WWW.AISH.COM. 

Acts 15:21 says absolutely nothing about Christians going in the Jewish Temple! Read the rest of the chapter. 

<<<That's interesting. because when I read Acts 21, I read about Paul going into the temple offering a sacrifice. He was encouraged to do this by the other believers to show his loyalty to Torah.>>> 

Again you're reading out of context, read on, they try to kill him for heresy. 

<<<Acts 2:46 
46 And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 

They went in day after day. 

Then we have Peter and John going up to the temple to offer their daily prayers (another Jewish custom the first believers observed): 

Acts 3:1 
1 Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the ninth {hour,} the hour of prayer. 

Then, we have the VERY angel of the Lord commanding them to go preach at the temple: 

Acts 5:19-20 
19 But an angel of the Lord during the night opened the gates of the prison, and taking them out he said, 
20 "Go your way, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life." 

And again, the believers meeting at the temple: 

Acts 5:42 
42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus {as} the Christ.>>> 

These are talking about Apostles going in the Temple preaching for which they were chastized, beaten, and imprisoned for at different times. They were doing what they were instructed to do by the Lord. You also notice when you read these in context, that there were many Jews brought to Jesus through this, but nothing about other Jesus believers following them in only following them out. Every verse you are quoting, you are taking out of context to try to make it mean something it doesn't. Please, if you use scripture, post all the scripture around it pertaining. If you do this, you won't find any that say believers, others than the Apostles, every went to the Temple to preach. And they always got booted and or punished for it! 



May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/26/2001 6:59 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (25 of 39)  
 
  245.25 in reply to 245.24  
 
You said: 
What isn't moot is the fact that you are taking these verses out of context that proves them Christian and not Jewish meeting places. 
I think you forget that of the first believers in Yeshua they were all Jewish. They weren't "Christian" in the modern connotation. They were all Jews. Of course they met in synagogues and the temple at Jerusalem. 

You said: 
Apparently, you don't read the Talmud or Torah. Both say that infidels[those not of the Jewish Faith] cannot be accepted into the church without converting to Judaism. 

Where in Torah does it say this????? I have studied Torah for two decades and have never seen that once. 

I am VERY familiar with the teachings at Aish. Do you study much there? I have the live cam of the Wall on most of the day to remind me to pray for peace. 

You said: 
Acts 15:21 says absolutely nothing about Christians going in the Jewish Temple 

I know that verse by heart. I quoted it for you from four different translations so you would know I wasn't making it up. It says that the former pagan Gentiles would be in the synagogues learning the law of Moshe. 

You said: 
Again you're reading out of context, read on, they try to kill him for heresy. 

So, you are saying that Paul was lying and the accusers were telling the truth? Are you sure you want to travel down that path? 

You said: 
They were doing what they were instructed to do by the Lord. 

Uh, I think that is something we all should be doing :) 

You said: 
Please, if you use scripture, post all the scripture around it pertaining 

That's an interesting rebuttal for the point I was making which was in answer to your statement that the first believers never went into the temple or synagogue. I posted verses to show that they did. Now you tell me I'm posting them out of context. The context isn't important to answering your position that they never were in the Temple. They were. Black and white. 

You said: 
If you do this, you won't find any that say believers, others than the Apostles, every went to the Temple to preach. And they always got booted and or punished for it! 

Yet I showed you that the first believers met at the temple daily. No mention of punishment. 

Shalom 


Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/26/2001 7:23 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (26 of 39)  
 
  245.26 in reply to 245.25  
 
<<<I think you forget that of the first believers in Yeshua they were all Jewish. They weren't "Christian" in the modern connotation. They were all Jews. Of course they met in synagogues and the temple at Jerusalem.>>> 
You have yet to show scripture to back this up. There are no scripture that say Jesus believers went to the synagogue. Why would someone support a synagogue that believed Jesus was not the Messiah? 
Common sense tells us you don't throw a cat in the middle of a pack of dogs; if you expect it to live. Beside that the synagogues didn't teach what Jesus taught. Again, why would someone go in a place that denied Jesus to hear the Word of Jesus! 

<<<Where in Torah does it say this????? I have studied Torah for two decades and have never seen that once.>>> 

Then you didn't read the laws that forbid Jews from intermingling with other races. 

<<<I am VERY familiar with the teachings at Aish. Do you study much there?>>> 

I go there often, I like keeping up with what's going on. As far as the wall, it is just a wall. It's God that's important, there shouldn't be so much importance put on that piece of wall. 

It says Moses was taught there, not that Gentiles were there listening. 

Acts 15:21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 

<<<So, you are saying that Paul was lying and the accusers were telling the truth? Are you sure you want to travel down that path?>>> 

Read it again. I said they said Paul was lying, they accused him of heresy and drug him from the temple. I believe every word Paul wrote was God-inspired and true. 

<<<That's an interesting rebuttal for the point I was making which was in answer to your statement that the first believers never went into the temple or synagogue. I posted verses to show that they did. Now you tell me I'm posting them out of context. The context isn't important to answering your position that they never were in the Temple. They were. Black and white.>>> 

And again, they were out of context. If you read the verses that precede and follow, the give that verse a different meaning and still never place Gentiles in the synagogues. 

<<<Yet I showed you that the first believers met at the temple daily. No mention of punishment.>>> 

Not that I've seen. If you want to prove this to me, better find some other verses, cause this one don't do it. 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/26/2001 7:48 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (27 of 39)  
 
  245.27 in reply to 245.26  
 
You said: 

You have yet to show scripture to back this up. There are no scripture that say Jesus believers went to the synagogue. 
I had to smile when I read this. For in Paul's very own words he gives his testimony how he used to go to the synagogues to drag out the believers in Yeshua to persecute them: 

Acts 22:19 
19 "And I said, 'Lord, they themselves understand that in one synagogue after another I used to imprison and beat those who believed in Thee. 
(NAS) 

Acts 22:19 
19 "'Lord,' I replied, 'these men know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you. 
(NIV) 

Acts 22:19 
19 "So I said, 'Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 
(NKJ) 

Acts 22:19 
19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: 
(KJV) 

So now, I've shown where believers met in the Temple and believers met in the synagogues. 

The book of Acts is a wonderful book. Some say it is the most Jewish book in the Bible! 

You said: 
Again, why would someone go in a place that denied Jesus to hear the Word of Jesus 

How could they deny someone of which they had not heard? 

Perhaps you forget the words of Paul? 

Rom 10:14-17 
14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!" 
16 However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says," Lord, who has believed our report?" 
17 So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 
(NAS) 

You said: 
Then you didn't read the laws that forbid Jews from intermingling with other races. 

That didn't answer my question. Your statement was 
Apparently, you don't read the Talmud or Torah. Both say that infidels[those not of the Jewish Faith] cannot be accepted into the church without converting to Judaism 

Okay, again I ask you, where in Torah does it say this? Chapter and verse please? And where are those not of the "Jewish faith" called infidels? Unless you can produce Scripture I would suggest that you are in error on this point. 

You said: 
It's God that's important, there shouldn't be so 
much importance put on that piece of wall. 

After reading Ezra and Nehemiah, I guess I put a lot of stock in the Word of God. Why did God have it rebuilt then? 

You said: 
It says Moses was taught there, not that Gentiles were there listening. 

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 

Okay, this cracked me up. You ARE joking right? I read this response aloud to my family and they laughed and laughed. So I knew this was a joke, not a serious comment. 

-------------- 

You said: 
Read it again. I said they said Paul was lying, they accused him of heresy and drug him from the temple. I believe every word Paul wrote 
was God-inspired and true. 

Me too. I believe when Paul said he was NOT teaching against the Law he meant it. 

------------- 

You said: 
And again, they were out of context. If you read the verses that precede and follow, the give that verse a different meaning and still never place Gentiles in the synagogues. 

Again, my answer was in response to your teaching that the first believers were never at the synagogues. You didn't say the first Gentiles. We don't read about them until Acts 10 when the God-fearer Cornelius accepted Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah. You do know whom a God-fearer was, right? If not, I'll be happy to explain. 

Acts 10:1-3 
1 Now {there was} a certain man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 
2 a devout man, and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the {Jewish} people, and prayed to God continually. 
3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had {just} come in to him, and said to him, "Cornelius!" 
(NAS) 

Here, Luke records that Cornelius was practicing the Jewish custom of praying at the ninth hour. Interesting huh? 

---------------- 
You said: 
Not that I've seen. If you want to prove this to me, better find some other verses, cause this one don't do it. 

That is an interesting theology you have my friend. How many times must something be mentioned in Scripture before it is true? Once is not enough? 

Acts 2:46-47 
46 And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 
47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. 
(NAS) 


Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/27/2001 6:20 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (28 of 39)  
 
  245.28 in reply to 245.27  
 
<<<Acts 22:19 
19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: (KJV)>>> 
As I said before, if you read on, he cast them out among the Gentiles. 

Acts 22:21  And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. 

<<<How could they deny someone of which they had not heard?>>> 

This was after the ministry and the crucifixion of Christ, although some may have not heard His Word yet; they had heard of Him. 

<<<Okay, again I ask you, where in Torah does it say this? Chapter and verse please? And where are those not of the "Jewish faith" called infidels? Unless you can produce Scripture I would suggest that you are in error on this point.>>> 

Numbers 1:18  And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their PEDIGREES after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. 

Pedigree means they were of pure Jewish blood. They were not to mix blood with other people! If they were not to mix blood, I'm sure they were not to mix faiths. There are verses for it, and I will find them and post them for you later. But all through the Old Testament they were commanded not to mix with other races, such as with Jezebel: 

1 Kings 16:31-32 And it came to pass, as if it had been a light thing for him to walk in the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, that he took to wife Jezebel the daughter of Ethbaal king of the Zidonians, and went and served Baal, and worshipped him. And he reared up an altar for Baal in the house of Baal, which he had built in Samaria. 

She was allowed to pollute the Jewish Faith with pagan Gods. You seem to be telling me that Baptist preacher can go in the Jewish Temple and preach Jesus, and I have a hard time believing that. Or maybe you're telling me that a Baptist can go to a Jewish Temple and hear the preachings of Jesus Christ, which is just as ridiculous. Neither one of these happen, for Jesus is not taught in the Jewish synagogues. So again, why would a Jesus believer attend a synagogue that didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah! That would make one a hypocrite. Professing Jesus and then attending a synagogue that thought Him a criminal and prompted His execution is hypocritical. There is a difference between the Jewish Faith and the Christian Faith!The Jewish Faith lives by the teachings of Moses, the Christians by the teaching of Jesus! Moses teaching wasn't set down for Gentiles, Jesus was. Moses teaching was and is just for Jews, Jesus teaching was and is for everyone! They make it a point to tell us in Acts and Romans that the Gentiles are not expected to live by Jewish Law and are told what's expected of them. So why do you continue to say that we are to learn and live the law of Moses? 

<<<After reading Ezra and Nehemiah, I guess I put a lot of stock in the Word of God. Why did God have it rebuilt then?>>> 

The temple was important and will be again, but this is not the temple; it is merely a wall! There is nothing holy about it. Even the Bible says that all structures will be wiped out when He returns! 

<<<Okay, this cracked me up. You ARE joking right? I read this response aloud to my family and they laughed and laughed. So I knew this was a joke, not a serious comment.>>> 

Why. It says the law of Moses was taught there. It didn't say Gentiles were sitting there listening. 

<<<Me too. I believe when Paul said he was NOT teaching against the Law he meant it.>>> 

Then you should have no trouble believing Gentiles are not bound by the law of Moses! Paul said they weren't. 

<<<Again, my answer was in response to your teaching that the first believers were never at the synagogues. You didn't say the first Gentiles. We don't read about them until Acts 10 when the God-fearer Cornelius accepted Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah. You do know whom a God-fearer was, right? If not, I'll be happy to explain.>>> 

I digress. Jewish believers, yes; Gentiles, never! But as I said, and as you pointed out earlier, Saul drug them out and they were beaten and imprison, because speaking Jesus in the temple and synagogues was unlawful. 

Acts 10:1-3 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 

Sorry. It says he saw an angel in a vision about the ninth hour, not that he was praying in the ninth hour. I didn't read "practicing the Jewish custom of praying in the ninth hour" anywhere. As a matter of fact, the only part of your statement in these verses is ninth hour. 
It also said in the second verse that he prayed to God always, so what difference would the ninth hour make to him, if he prayed all the time. 

<<<That is an interesting theology you have my friend. How many times must something be mentioned in Scripture before it is true? Once is not enough?>>> 

Not if it doesn't say what you claim, and especially if there are other verses that disagree with your statement. Yes the believers went after they accepted Christ, but they were also thrown out when this was found out. 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/27/2001 6:40 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (29 of 39)  
 
  245.29 in reply to 245.28  
 
You said: 
This was after the ministry and the crucifixion of Christ, although some may have not heard His Word yet; 
they had heard of Him. 
Apparently not, or Paul wouldn't have had to go into long explanations. 

Thanks for the verses. I love Scripture. But since you couldn't give any Scripture that says "those not of the "Jewish faith" called 
infidels" I can assume you have changed your position on that. 

You said: 
Moses teaching wasn't set down for Gentiles, Jesus was. 

Yet Scripture says differently, doesn't it? Numbers 15 and Lev. 24 says there is ONE law for all followers of the God of Israel. Or is Scripture in error on this point? 

Are you implying the Jewish Messiah came for only the Gentiles? If so, you are suggesting there are many paths to heaven. I hope you don't teach that. 

You said: 
Moses teaching was and is just for Jews, Jesus teaching was 
and is for everyone! 

Again, the Law is for all people who have faith in the God of Israel. At least that is what the Bible says. And if Jesus' teaching is for everyone, then surely we believe Him when He said He came NOT to abolish the Law. Or didn't He mean it either? 

You said: 
They make it a point to tell us in Acts and Romans that the Gentiles are not expected to live by Jewish Law 

This is correct. Gentiles are not expected to live by Jewish law. They are however expected to obey the Biblical commands which are for everyone who have faith in the God of Israel. 

You asked: 
So why do you continue to say that we are to learn and live the law of Moses? 

I guess because Jesus said it. Paul said it. I am under the conviction they meant it. 

After your comments about the Wailing Wall, I'm thinking you've never read Ezra and Nehemiah. Great read. I suggest it. 

You commented: 
Then you should have no trouble believing Gentiles are not bound by the law of Moses! Paul said they weren't. 

Paul said Gentiles were not under obligation to become Jews to be saved. He never taught against Torah unless he was lying in Acts. 

You commented: 
I digress. Jewish believers, yes; Gentiles, never! But as I said, and as you pointed out earlier, Saul drug them out and they were beaten and 
imprison, because speaking Jesus in the temple and synagogues was unlawful. 

Then we are in agreement. The first believers met in the synagogues on the sabbath. Just as the council at Jerusalem said. Acts 15;21. 

You said: 
Sorry. It says he saw an angel in a vision about the ninth hour, not that he was praying in the ninth hour. 

Which version are you using? The version I posted to you said Praying. 

You asked: 
It also said in the second verse that he prayed to God always, so what difference would the ninth hour make to him, if he prayed all the 
time. 

Because it was a Jewish custom. Being a ger (God-fearer) he would have practiced this. But knowing about gers, you would already know this. 

I've done all you requested. I posted verse after verse showing you that Gentiles and Jews were ONE in Yeshua, not having "church". You say those verses are not enough. You need more. 

Therefore, if the Bible can't supply the evidence you need, I'm out of luck. 

Shalom

Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/27/2001 7:15 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (30 of 39)  
 
  245.30 in reply to 245.29  
 
<<<Thanks for the verses. I love Scripture. But since you couldn't give any Scripture that says "those not of the "Jewish faith" called 
infidels" I can assume you have changed your position on that.>>> 
As I said I will get back to you on this. I may have to go to a Rabbi for help on this. He is usually very amiable to help me, as he wants to bring Jews back to Jewry and out of their mistaken thought of the Messiah coming. As for your following statements, they are from Lev. and Num. and pertained to ALL Jews. Gentiles weren't a part of it. Gentiles are also instructed to live by the teachings of the Apostles and Jesus, not Moses. 

<<<Yet Scripture says differently, doesn't it? Numbers 15 and Lev. 24 says there is ONE law for all followers of the God of Israel. Or is Scripture in error on this point?>>> 

No. Jesus came for the Jews and the Gentiles. But He didn't tell us Gentiles to live by Moses law as you keep insisting. Why don't you show me scripture in the New Testament that says "Gentiles are to live by Moses law". The rest of that statement says He came to fulfill it. He did this when He hung on the cross to provide our salvation. 

<<<This is correct. Gentiles are not expected to live by Jewish law. They are however expected to obey the Biblical commands which are for everyone who have faith in the God of Israel.>>> 

This is correct, but are instructed to live by Jesus and the Apostles teaching, not Moses. It may come as a surprise, they taught a few things supercede some of Moses law. Moses taught an eye for an eye, while Jesus taught forgive and love. Moses gave the Jews specific dietary Laws, but changed them for the Gentiles. The law that all are expected to live by are the ten commandments. Jesus and the Apostles made several references to keeping the law, and always referred the Ten Commandments. 

<<<I guess because Jesus said it. Paul said it. I am under the conviction they meant it.>>> 

Please show me in the New Testament, where Jesus and Paul said Gentiles are to live by Moses Law. Paul said Jews where still under Torah, not Gentiles. He didn't lie. Even now, Jews for Jesus follow the Torah, but Gentiles do not. They weren't expected to. Even you said they weren't expected to follow Torah for salvation. 

<<<Then we are in agreement. The first believers met in the synagogues on the sabbath. Just as the council at Jerusalem said>>> 

I said Yes they did, but they were thrown out; so it wasn't for long. 
The council was in the Christian Church, it along with several other home churches across the country had been established by then,not the synagogue. 

<<<Which version are you using? The version I posted to you said Praying.>>> 

I use the KJV. the rest are inspired by Satan to pull others away from His true Word. 

You say you proved by the verses you quoted, but these verses didn't say what you proclaim they say, as I showed you. So I guess that, as they say, is that. I understand you believe as you've been led by those that taught you, but you would better off learning from Him and His Word without outside influence; things would become much clearer. 

May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/27/2001 7:27 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (31 of 39)  
 
  245.31 in reply to 245.30  
 
Please DO ask your rabbi where Torah speaks of "infidels." Considering that Israel was to be a light to all nations to draw them to the God of Israel, I doubt if he will find one either. 
You said: 
He is usually very amiable to help me, as he wants to bring Jews back to Jewry and out of their mistaken thought of the Messiah coming. 

Amazing that you chastize me saying that it is wrong for Christians to go to Jewish synagogues, yet you accept a non-Believing rabbi for your authority. So you also deny Yeshua as the Messiah? 

------------------- 
You said: 
Why don't you show 
me scripture in the New Testament that says "Gentiles are to live by Moses law". 

Well, Acts 15:21, Romans 3:31, 2 Thess 2;15, 2 John 6 which I quote: 

II Jn 1:6 
6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. 

Or are Acts, Romans, 2 Thess, and the writings of John for the Jews only? 

------------- 
You said: 
The rest of that statement says He came to fulfill it. Yes, He showed us how to obey in fullness: that of love. 

------------- 
You said: 
Moses gave the Jews specific dietary Laws, but changed them for the Gentiles. 

Moses changed no commandments. NONE. 

---------- 
You said: 
They weren't expected to. Even you said they 
weren't expected to follow Torah for salvation. 

Who was expected to follow the law for salvation? NOBODY. Salvation has ALWAYS been by faith. ALWAYS. 

------------- 

You said: 
The council was in the Christian Church, 

There was no "Christian Church." Or Baptist church, or catholic or Methodist. 

----------- 
You said: 
I use the KJV. the rest are inspired by Satan to pull others away from His true Word. 

So reading it in Hebrew is satanic? 

Shalom 


Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/28/2001 8:01 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (32 of 39)  
 
  245.32 in reply to 245.31  
 
No, I don't deny Jesus. I said the reason the Rabbis like helping me find verses like that is because they believe it will bring fence-straddlers back to Jewry. The give me references, not advice. They know I'm a Christian and don't try to convert me. I wouldn't anyway. We are not told to convert, but to do as Jesus and the Apostles taught. This I do, so I have no doubt about my salvation. People ask, I answer them the God instructs, which is also the way the Bible instructs. I don't expect you to take my word, take His. You cannot just read the verses that make it sound like we have to live like Jews, but also the ones that say we as converted Gentiles do not. 
<<<2 Thessalonians 2:15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.>>> 

Acts 15:21 says nothing of Gentiles following the Law of Moses. Romans 3:31 says to establish the law, but they are talking about the law of Jesus, that all the Apostles were taught by Jesus,not Moses. And the one above says what we learned from Word of mouth or the "epistles". The epistles are part of the New Testament, not the Old. this will not support your argument. 

2 John 1:6 refers to the ten commandments. 

I was talking of Jesus changing that law, I know Moses didn't. 

<<<There was no "Christian Church." Or Baptist church, or catholic or Methodist.>>> 

There was, and James, Jesus brother was the leader of it. There were also home Christian churches. Was the Hebrew written after the KJV? I meant other English Bibles. And if it's Hebrew, that means you only have the O.T., right? 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/28/2001 8:35 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (33 of 39)  
 
  245.33 in reply to 245.32  
 
Hello, 
I just find it inconsistent to say that Christians can't learn anything in synagogue, but you go to a talmudic rabbi as your authority. 

You said: 
2 John 1:6 refers to the ten commandments. 

There are 613 commandments in the OT and over 1000 in the NT. Which of them didn't God mean to keep? 

You asked: 
And if it's Hebrew, that means you only have the O.T., right? 

Not necessarily. There are some wonderful Brit Hadashah's (NT) in Hebrew. 

Shabbat Shalom

Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/28/2001 10:16 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (34 of 39)  
 
  245.34 in reply to 245.33  
 
I didn't say they couldn't learn anything, I said they couldn't learn the teachings of Jesus. 
I know their are 613 Levitical Laws, but there are only Ten Commandments direct commandments. Or did I miss the part where God wrote the other 603 in stone? 

<<<Not necessarily. There are some wonderful Brit Hadashah's (NT) in Hebrew.>>> 

Which means what, that you have some? I thought it was against the Jewish Faith to read the New Testament? 


May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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   From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/29/2001 8:04 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (35 of 39)  
 
  245.35 in reply to 245.34  
 
Again, your position is inconsistent with your previous statements. 
Most of Christianity only teaches nine of the 10 commandments you speak of anyway. 

You said: 
I thought it was against the Jewish Faith to read the New Testament? 

Why would you think that? 

I don't own a Hebrew NT at the moment. Cost, ya know? But someday I hope to have one. 

Again, I ask...Which of the over 1600 commandments in Scripture was God not serious about? Didn't He mean it when He said it?

Barbara 
  
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 From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/29/2001 8:18 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (36 of 39)  
 
  245.36 in reply to 245.35  
 
Let me understand this, because if you're saying what I think you're saying, this is amazing. The synagogues all accept teachings of the New Testament and Jesus as the Messiah now? I'm not trying to be smart, you did say the Jewish Faith reads the New Testament, right? Does that include all Jews now?
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/29/2001 8:24 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (37 of 39)  
 
  245.37 in reply to 245.36  
 
I belong to a Messianic Jewish congregation. We teach ALL of Scripture, not just the last 27 books. 
It is inconsitent though to fault synagogues who don't accept the NT when much of Christianity rejects the OT. 

Shalom

Barbara 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/29/2001 8:33 pm  
To:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    (38 of 39)  
 
  245.38 in reply to 245.37  
 
We don't reject it, we know it as history, poems, and prophecy!
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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   From:  Barbara (BARBARA3)    12/30/2001 6:36 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (39 of 39)  
 
  245.39 in reply to 245.38  
 
We know all of Scripture to be the holy word of God. 
Shalom

Barbara 
  
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